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CALONTIR  December 2013

CALONTIR December 2013

Subject:

Re: canine activities

From:

Alexander Caithnes <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Historical Recreation in the Kingdom of Calontir <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 25 Dec 2013 19:27:25 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (296 lines)

Most of the stuff the eqestrians do that does.'t involve weapons is
modified games from
Pony Club or 4H. Why not research actual things instead of norrowing from
modern sources? To me, taking stuff from modern game sources is kust plain
lazy. If you eant to make stuff up, at least base it on something in
period. There are lots of illuminations out there to extrapolate from.


Take care,
Alexander


> So, a little further investigation leads me to believe that the rules were
> written between 1558 and 1569.  Elizabeth didn't take the throne until '58
> and in '69, Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk (the credited writer of the
> rules) was imprisoned for treason.
> I agree that we can't use a live rabbit.  We would have to modify the
> rules to allow for a mechanized rabbit.  We could run two dogs at once
> around a course and the winner would be the dog in the lead at a certain
> point.  Or perhaps the dogs get points for being in the lead at different
> spots along the course.  The issue I foresee is the two dogs deciding that
> the rabbit is less interesting than each other.
> As for other competitions, we should talk to the equestrian people to see
> where they came up with the various competitions they do.  I'm sure we
> could do something similar to an emprise.  I'm also picturing a small
> crane for a weight lifting competition.  I'll keep looking and see what I
> can find.  But I wouldn't restrict ourselves to only those things we can
> document.  More stuff to do = more fun for all.
> Murd
>
> Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 00:58:41 -0600
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] canine activities
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     This is exactly the kind of
>       documentation we need and need to focus on.  Thank you Bruce.  I'm
>       actually ok with a machine rabbit for humane reasons.  Can you
>       find anything similar for weight pull or agility type activities?
>
>
>
>       On 12/24/2013 8:30 AM, Bruce Lapham wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       After just googling "medieval dog
>         competitions" I came up with these two comments on coursing.
>
>
>
>         >From http://www.gulfcoastgreyhounds.org/hist-mid-ren.html
>
>         "Coursing races, with dogs chasing live rabbits, became popular
>         during the sixteenth century. Queen Elizabeth I of England
>         (1533-1603) had Thomas, Duke of Norfolk, draw up rules judging
>         competitive coursing. These rules established such things as the
>         hare's head start and the ways in which the two hounds' speed,
>         agility and concentration would be judged against one another.
>         Winning was not neccesarily dependent on catching the hare
>         (although this did earn a high score). Often the hare escaped."
>
>
>
>         >From http://www.gulfcoastgreyhounds.org/course-rules.html
>
>
>
>         " Rules of Renaissance Coursing
>
>
>
>         The following rules are transcribed from Country Contentment's,
>         published in 1638 by Gervase Markham. Subheads have been added
>         to each rule for easier reference and have modernized and
>         standardized the spelling of words. Otherwise, the text under
>         "rule" is verbatim from the eighth edition of Markham's book.
>         The "interpretation" is a translation of what the rule means.
>
>
>
>
>
>         The Laws of the Leash or coursing, as they were commanded,
>         allowed, and subscribed by Thomas late Duke of Norfolk, in the
>         reign of Queen Elizabeth."
>
>
>
>
>         I know the second source was written post period, but it
>         references laws written by Elizabeth I, who died only 2 years
>         and 3 months post period.
>
>
>
>         Coursing as a competition and not as a hunt is period.
>
>
>
>         Now that's not to say that we shouldn't find other ways to
>         showcase our dogs, but I believe Sziggy said he wanted to be
>         inclusive of activities rather than exclusive.  I'm just
>         pointing out that coursing competitions are period and should
>         not be left out.  Especially since they have already been run
>         successfully at Gulf Wars.
>
>
>
>         Murd
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         --- Original Message ---
>
>
>
>         From: "Jerry Harder" <[log in to unmask]>
>
>         Sent: December 24, 2013 12:15 AM
>
>         To: [log in to unmask]
>
>         Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] canine activities
>
>
>
>
>
>         I think you missed about three
>           fourths of what I said.  I never said it wasn't interesting I
>           said "There are so many much more interesting and useful types
>           of dogs, and things for them to do than coursing for the
>           amount of expense and equipment involved" and I never said the
>           type of dogs used in coursing were not period. I said "I have
>           not seen any documentation that shows coursing is period other
>           that it is supposed to approximate the activity of hunting
>           with sight hounds."  Sorry but chasing a bag on a cable isn't
>           hunting"  So rather than being offended by something I did not
>           say, how about producing some real documentation for it.  That
>           being said, I still support it as a possible k-9 activity but
>           lets talk about how to make it more period. How do other
>           kingdoms do it? Etc.
>
>
>
>           On 12/23/2013 6:23 PM, Daniel Brizendine wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>             As someone that has Coursing dogs I take
>                 exception that my dogs and their activit is not
>                 “interesting and useful”.  The activity that coursing
>                 dog have done for over 6,000 years would be to feed
>                 their human companions.  In the middle ages you can not
>                 hardly find a picture of dogs that does not include
>                 coursing dogs.  The pictures and paintings include
>                 usually greyhound type dogs (English Spanish, Polish and
>                 Hungarian) along with their next of kin the Italian
>                 greyhound (documentable to 500 bce and Whippets (less
>                 documentation but somewhere in the 13-15th
>                 century.
>
>             I think that if there is a Canine Guild
>                 that guild should be more inclusive than less.  There
>                 should be coursing along with drafting, agility and
>                 such.  I also own English Bulldogs that we know are
>                 documentable to at least 1620’s as they are in the first
>                 English Book of Canines but were already developed so
>                 most historians that deal with canines in the middle
>                 ages would include any of the dogs in that book in at
>                 least the 16th century if not the 15th.
>                 My bulldogs love to play at coursing but nearly any dog
>                 will do that.  But they can do agility and some of the
>                 bullies have done weight pulling.  Many of the modern
>                 activities I am sure we can associate to medieval
>                 participation.  There is also herding which is a quite
>                 documentable trait.
>
>             Lord Zsigmond
>
>
>
>                 From: Historical Recreation in the
>                     Kingdom of Calontir [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>                     On Behalf Of Jerry Harder
>
>                     Sent: Monday, December 23, 2013 4:56 PM
>
>                     To:
>                       [log in to unmask]
>
>                     Subject: [CALONTIR] canine activities
>
>
>
>             A few
>               years ago? Are you only referring to coursing? I have had
>               little interest in coursing (my dogs aren't the right
>               type.) There are so many much more interesting and useful
>               types of dogs, and things for them to do than coursing for
>               the amount of expense and equipment involved. Also I have
>               not seen any documentation that shows coursing is period
>               other that it is supposed to approximate the activity of
>               hunting with sight hounds. I really don't have anything
>               against coursing per say other than that the dog types
>               that can be competitively successful is rather limited.
>
>             Every
>               year I bring my tread-wheel powered shop to Lilies. This
>               is an activity I do have documentation for dogs doing in
>               medieval times. (Big dogs for pumping water, and little
>               dogs for turning cooking spits.) I also have a cart which
>               takes a lot of space and haven't been bringing the last
>               few years, but all my dogs are trained to pull a cart or
>               wagon. There is documentation for dogs as draft and pack
>               animals as well. I have participated in mundane weight
>               pull competitions and the late Argent and my current old
>               boy Samson both have Weight Pull 3 titles. That's the
>               highest you can get without touring the whole country’s
>               rodeo circuit for that activity.  If dogs were sometimes
>               used as draft animals, then it seems there would have been
>               some sort of competition with them (human nature??) This
>               would be easy to do in the SCA and could be adjusted
>               according to the dogs weight to make it a fair competition
>               for any type and size of dog. ( I can certainly help with
>               how to make harness and train dogs for that) There would
>               need to be enough interest, trained dogs, and appropriate
>               harness to make it worth while- that is to say have a
>               competition or at least some sort of exhibition. I have
>               trained a dog for herding and that too is a period
>               activity, but not very practical for SCA purposes. (It
>               requires fencing, equipment, and shelter facilities not
>               only for the dogs and the competition but also for the
>               animals to be herded.) Agility is a blast and would be a
>               wonderful type of activity that would mesh into the things
>               we do in the SCA but I have never found anything that
>               suggest it is a medieval, or approximates a medieval
>               activity. (I will give you that I am not the best “finder”
>               when it comes to research) So maybe you can come up with
>               something.
>
>             I can
>               document one or two of what I call “Stupid dog tricks”
>               apparently for entertainment. ...BORING!.....But maybe
>               that's an excuse for an agility type activity.
>
>             I have
>               taught about 3 classes on using dogs for carting and dog
>               training for which I had a total of 2 students and one of
>               the students was about as qualified to teach the class as
>               I was. My conclusion (about 4 years ago) was there was not
>               much interest. Maybe times have changed. Equestrian has
>               taken off since then and and was barely heard of at that
>               time. I think a lot more folks have dogs than have
>               horses...
>
>             To
>               summarize, I think a “sponsored” SCA K-9 activity should
>               be both more period and offer a wider more level playing
>               field as far as to the types of dogs having opportunity
>               for success compared to coursing.  Do you have any ideas.
>               I would be delighted to help in organizing, building
>               equipment, and running some sort of k-9 activity. I think
>               it would be a great thing to do at lilies, and some
>               things, at many other events too.
>
>             Master
>               Gerald Goodwine.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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