LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for ECN-L Archives


ECN-L Archives

ECN-L Archives


ECN-L@LISTSERV.UNL.EDU


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

ECN-L Home

ECN-L Home

ECN-L  February 2016, Week 3

ECN-L February 2016, Week 3

Subject:

Re: collecting permits in the U.S. or Canada

From:

"Ivie, Michael" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Ivie, Michael

Date:

Sat, 20 Feb 2016 19:52:23 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (47 lines)

To answer one specific question yes the state does have jurisdiction. You cannot hunt in the national forest without a state hunting license.  You cannot fish in the national forest or BLM land without a fishing license which comes from the state. There's nothing intrinsically difference between that and the insect permit. Yes I know you can't Fish
on land but you know what I mean.
Mike
________________________________
From: Entomological Collections Network Listserve <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Doug Yanega <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 12:08:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: collecting permits in the U.S. or Canada

I can possibly help clarify a few issues for those who have not read all the details in the regulations or know their history. Accordingly:

On 2/19/16 10:01 PM, Norm Smith wrote:
What idiot thought this up and what rational is behind it?
This set of regulations is actually quite old, now, and only a few minor changes have been recently implemented - the fees, in particular. The rationale appears to be (admittedly with only circumstantial evidence) that some people thought that State agencies needed to monitor or control the collection of invertebrates; in order to accommodate this, the original regulations were tweaked so as to classify ALL invertebrates as "fish", so all the existing regulations that applied to fish collecting permits were thereby extended to invertebrates, saving them the trouble of designing new regulations that were specifically geared for invertebrates. Again, this has been true for many years now, but it was historically nearly impossible to obtain the actual permits, in part because the staffers evidently had their hands full with OTHER permits, primarily for hunting and fishing and such. However, in the last year or so a new wrinkle was introduced by establishing a dedicated position for a person to address these particular permits, and establishing fees in order to cover the administrative costs associated with this person's position.
Are they trying to discourage students or independent naturalists from engaging in studies that require them to collect specimens?
If we give them the benefit of the doubt, no, they are not trying to discourage anything, they are trying to monitor and regulate it - though why they should feel a need (or a right) to do so is not clear at all; one assumes that they see this as part of their mandate as stewards of our wildlife resources, and that they have included invertebrates under that umbrella without realizing exactly how impractical it actually is. Only in the worst-case interpretation would we consider this as deliberate obstruction, rather than acting out of sheer ignorance.
 How long is the permit effective?
I'm fairly certain they are for 5-year intervals.
Does one have to include exactly how many of each species they intend to collect?
According to the regulations, yes - number of specimens, what species, and what dates and localities you intend to be collecting. Moreover, if you want to change the number of specimens, or number of species, or dates, or anything, there is an extra administrative fee assessed every time you edit the permit.
Can one collect serendipitous specimens that happen to also get swept into the net or immersed in the water pan traps?
According to the regulations, not without editing your permit, and passive traps require explicit special permission in order to be allowed at all.
Unfortunately my insects are too small to be determined prior to collecting them in the field and must be taken back to the lab and identified under a high resolution dissecting scope. Often times my collecting is exploratory in nature - I'm trying to determine just what does occur in various habits.  Heaven forbid, I may collect a specimen that's not on my list.
Then you'd need to edit your permit, and pay an extra fee, as noted above.
 Does this also include PCA's collecting insects on their customers properties?  Or PCO's collecting specimens from their clients to have them identified by a county entomologist?
I see nothing to suggest it does not. Nothing seems to be excluded, unless it serves no scientific or educational purpose.
You can see how ridiculous this can get.
Indeed I do. It's frankly appalling. Nearly every single bit of medical or agricultural entomology being done in California is ostensibly subject to these regulations; all survey work, all monitoring. Every sticky card in every crop field or livestock yard, every pitfall trap, every malaise trap, is in direct violation of these regulations, if any of the data being gathered is used for scientific or educational purposes.
This development is very disappointing and I hope saner minds will realize that this is not rationally enforceable for invertebrates.
Saner minds have realized this, but none of those saner minds have direct control over the creation or implementation of these regulations. Thus, our dilemma.

On 2/20/16 8:02 AM, Frank T. Krell wrote:
The other problem is that law enforcement might not see the difference between fun collecting and scientific collecting. If an official catches me collecting without a permit,  to you think it helps telling  him that it was just for fun, but not scientific? And I won’t learn anything  from it because it cannot be educational?
Here's the thing that is missing from the discussion so far, and very important: there is no clear mechanism for enforcement. As far as one can tell from the regulations, you cannot be arrested, or fined, or have specimens confiscated, or anything, for not having one of these permits. There is no evidence, at this point, that any state law enforcement agencies are cooperating with the CDFW in any way. Instead, the modus operandi for the enforcement of the regulations (to date) is that this one person at the CDFW (the one whose job is to review and grant these permits) personally intervenes any time someone tries to work with or through any governmental agency, such as the National Parks Service, The US Fish & Wildlife Service, or the military, either in order to obtain permission to collect invertebrates, or in order to conduct invertebrate surveys. That is, if someone applies for a permit from the NPS or USFWS, etc., it triggers a red flag at the CDFW, and the person at the CDFW contacts the permitting agency and tells them not to grant any permits until the applicant FIRST obtains a CDFW permit - in essence, the CDFW is claiming prior jurisdiction, telling these other agencies that they should not issue permits without the CDFW's prior approval. It is unclear whether they do in fact have this authority. So far, these other agencies seem to be going along with this claim, though I am personally aware of at least one NPS administrator who refuses to recognize the CDFW's authority over the NPS, and is granting NPS permits anyway.

That being said, John's solicitation is an attempt to find out whether California is unique in having such a system in place, especially in regards to the assessment of fees. If we can learn from examples elsewhere, from anyone on this list, this would be instructive. But if the CDFW policies are unique, and establishing a national precedent, then that may influence how we respond - specifically, I would like, myself, to expand his solicitation to include anyone here who has good contacts within Federal agencies such as the NPS and USFWS, and can get opinions as to whether a State agency can indeed tell Federal agencies what they can and cannot do. If this is a clear-cut case of someone overstepping their authority, then the potential should exist of having higher-level administrators within the NPS and USFWS intervene, and make it explicit that (at the very least) issuing permits for work on any Federally-administered properties is the sole responsibility of Federal agencies. That would still leave State and private lands under nominal CDFW jurisdiction; but without any enforcement mechanism, they would no longer be in a position to prevent people from doing scientific or educational collecting.

Sincerely,

--
Doug Yanega      Dept. of Entomology       Entomology Research Museum
Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314     skype: dyanega
phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
             http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
  "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
        is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

March 2020, Week 4
March 2020, Week 3
March 2020, Week 2
March 2020, Week 1
February 2020, Week 5
February 2020, Week 4
February 2020, Week 3
February 2020, Week 2
February 2020, Week 1
January 2020, Week 5
January 2020, Week 4
January 2020, Week 3
January 2020, Week 2
January 2020, Week 1
December 2019, Week 5
December 2019, Week 4
December 2019, Week 3
December 2019, Week 2
December 2019, Week 1
November 2019, Week 5
November 2019, Week 4
November 2019, Week 3
November 2019, Week 2
November 2019, Week 1
October 2019, Week 5
October 2019, Week 4
October 2019, Week 3
October 2019, Week 2
October 2019, Week 1
September 2019, Week 4
September 2019, Week 3
September 2019, Week 2
September 2019, Week 1
August 2019, Week 5
August 2019, Week 4
August 2019, Week 3
August 2019, Week 2
August 2019, Week 1
July 2019, Week 5
July 2019, Week 4
July 2019, Week 3
July 2019, Week 2
July 2019, Week 1
June 2019, Week 4
June 2019, Week 3
June 2019, Week 2
June 2019, Week 1
May 2019, Week 5
May 2019, Week 4
May 2019, Week 3
May 2019, Week 2
April 2019, Week 5
April 2019, Week 4
April 2019, Week 3
April 2019, Week 2
March 2019, Week 5
March 2019, Week 4
March 2019, Week 3
March 2019, Week 2
March 2019, Week 1
February 2019, Week 4
February 2019, Week 3
February 2019, Week 2
February 2019, Week 1
January 2019, Week 5
January 2019, Week 4
January 2019, Week 3
January 2019, Week 2
January 2019, Week 1
December 2018, Week 4
December 2018, Week 3
December 2018, Week 1
November 2018, Week 5
November 2018, Week 4
November 2018, Week 3
November 2018, Week 2
November 2018, Week 1
October 2018, Week 5
October 2018, Week 4
October 2018, Week 3
October 2018, Week 1
September 2018, Week 4
September 2018, Week 3
September 2018, Week 2
September 2018, Week 1
August 2018, Week 2
July 2018, Week 5
July 2018, Week 4
July 2018, Week 3
July 2018, Week 2
July 2018, Week 1
June 2018, Week 5
June 2018, Week 4
June 2018, Week 3
June 2018, Week 2
June 2018, Week 1
May 2018, Week 4
May 2018, Week 3
May 2018, Week 2
May 2018, Week 1
April 2018, Week 4
April 2018, Week 3
April 2018, Week 2
April 2018, Week 1
March 2018, Week 5
March 2018, Week 4
March 2018, Week 3
March 2018, Week 2
March 2018, Week 1
February 2018, Week 4
February 2018, Week 3
February 2018, Week 2
February 2018, Week 1
January 2018, Week 5
January 2018, Week 4
January 2018, Week 3
January 2018, Week 2
December 2017, Week 4
December 2017, Week 3
December 2017, Week 2
December 2017, Week 1
November 2017, Week 5
November 2017, Week 4
November 2017, Week 3
November 2017, Week 1
October 2017, Week 5
October 2017, Week 4
October 2017, Week 3
October 2017, Week 2
October 2017, Week 1
September 2017, Week 5
September 2017, Week 4
September 2017, Week 3
September 2017, Week 2
September 2017, Week 1
August 2017, Week 5
August 2017, Week 4
August 2017, Week 3
August 2017, Week 2
August 2017, Week 1
July 2017, Week 2
July 2017, Week 1
June 2017, Week 5
June 2017, Week 4
June 2017, Week 3
June 2017, Week 2
June 2017, Week 1
May 2017, Week 4
May 2017, Week 3
May 2017, Week 2
May 2017, Week 1
April 2017, Week 4
April 2017, Week 3
April 2017, Week 2
April 2017, Week 1
March 2017, Week 5
March 2017, Week 4
March 2017, Week 3
March 2017, Week 2
March 2017, Week 1
February 2017, Week 4
February 2017, Week 3
February 2017, Week 2
February 2017, Week 1
January 2017, Week 5
January 2017, Week 4
January 2017, Week 2
January 2017, Week 1
December 2016, Week 5
December 2016, Week 4
December 2016, Week 3
December 2016, Week 2
December 2016, Week 1
November 2016, Week 5
November 2016, Week 4
November 2016, Week 3
November 2016, Week 2
November 2016, Week 1
October 2016, Week 5
October 2016, Week 3
October 2016, Week 2
October 2016, Week 1
September 2016, Week 4
September 2016, Week 3
September 2016, Week 2
September 2016, Week 1
August 2016, Week 5
August 2016, Week 3
August 2016, Week 2
August 2016, Week 1
July 2016, Week 5
July 2016, Week 4
July 2016, Week 3
July 2016, Week 2
July 2016, Week 1
June 2016, Week 4
June 2016, Week 3
June 2016, Week 2
June 2016, Week 1
May 2016, Week 5
May 2016, Week 4
May 2016, Week 3
May 2016, Week 2
May 2016, Week 1
April 2016, Week 4
April 2016, Week 3
April 2016, Week 2
April 2016, Week 1
March 2016, Week 5
March 2016, Week 4
March 2016, Week 3
March 2016, Week 2
March 2016, Week 1
February 2016, Week 4
February 2016, Week 3
February 2016, Week 2
February 2016, Week 1
January 2016, Week 4
January 2016, Week 3
January 2016, Week 2
January 2016, Week 1
December 2015, Week 4
December 2015, Week 3
December 2015, Week 2
December 2015, Week 1
November 2015, Week 5
November 2015, Week 4
November 2015, Week 3
November 2015, Week 2
November 2015, Week 1
October 2015, Week 5
October 2015, Week 4
October 2015, Week 3
October 2015, Week 2
October 2015, Week 1
September 2015, Week 5
September 2015, Week 4
September 2015, Week 3
September 2015, Week 2
September 2015, Week 1
August 2015, Week 4
August 2015, Week 3
August 2015, Week 2
July 2015, Week 5
July 2015, Week 4
July 2015, Week 3
July 2015, Week 2
June 2015, Week 5
June 2015, Week 4
June 2015, Week 2
June 2015, Week 1
May 2015, Week 5
May 2015, Week 4
May 2015, Week 3
May 2015, Week 2
April 2015, Week 4
April 2015, Week 1
March 2015, Week 4
March 2015, Week 3
March 2015, Week 2
March 2015, Week 1
February 2015, Week 4
February 2015, Week 3
February 2015, Week 2
February 2015, Week 1
January 2015, Week 4
January 2015, Week 3
January 2015, Week 2
January 2015, Week 1
December 2014, Week 5
December 2014, Week 4
December 2014, Week 3
December 2014, Week 2
December 2014, Week 1
November 2014, Week 4
November 2014, Week 3
November 2014, Week 2
November 2014, Week 1
October 2014, Week 5
October 2014, Week 4
October 2014, Week 3
October 2014, Week 2
October 2014, Week 1
September 2014, Week 5
September 2014, Week 4
September 2014, Week 3
September 2014, Week 2
September 2014, Week 1
August 2014, Week 5
August 2014, Week 4
August 2014, Week 3
August 2014, Week 2
July 2014, Week 4
July 2014, Week 3
July 2014, Week 2
July 2014, Week 1
June 2014, Week 5
June 2014, Week 4
June 2014, Week 3
June 2014, Week 2
May 2014, Week 4
May 2014, Week 3
May 2014, Week 2
May 2014, Week 1
April 2014, Week 5
April 2014, Week 4
April 2014, Week 3
April 2014, Week 2
April 2014, Week 1
March 2014, Week 3
March 2014, Week 2
March 2014, Week 1
February 2014, Week 4
February 2014, Week 3
February 2014, Week 2
February 2014, Week 1
January 2014, Week 4
January 2014, Week 3
January 2014, Week 2
January 2014, Week 1
December 2013, Week 3
December 2013, Week 2
December 2013, Week 1
November 2013, Week 3
November 2013, Week 2
November 2013, Week 1
October 2013, Week 5
October 2013, Week 4
October 2013, Week 3
September 2013, Week 5
September 2013, Week 4
September 2013, Week 3
September 2013, Week 2
September 2013, Week 1
August 2013, Week 4
August 2013, Week 3
August 2013, Week 2
August 2013, Week 1
July 2013, Week 4
July 2013, Week 2
July 2013, Week 1
June 2013, Week 4
June 2013, Week 3
June 2013, Week 2
May 2013, Week 3
May 2013, Week 2
April 2013, Week 4
April 2013, Week 3
April 2013, Week 2
April 2013, Week 1
March 2013, Week 4
March 2013, Week 3
March 2013, Week 2
March 2013, Week 1
February 2013, Week 4
February 2013, Week 3
February 2013, Week 2
February 2013, Week 1
January 2013, Week 5
January 2013, Week 4
January 2013, Week 3
January 2013, Week 2
January 2013, Week 1
December 2012, Week 4
December 2012, Week 3
December 2012, Week 2
December 2012, Week 1
November 2012, Week 3
November 2012, Week 2
November 2012, Week 1
October 2012, Week 4
October 2012, Week 3
October 2012, Week 2
October 2012, Week 1
September 2012, Week 5
September 2012, Week 4
September 2012, Week 3
September 2012, Week 2
September 2012, Week 1
August 2012, Week 4
August 2012, Week 2
July 2012, Week 3
July 2012, Week 2
July 2012, Week 1
June 2012, Week 4
June 2012, Week 3
June 2012, Week 2
May 2012, Week 4
May 2012, Week 3
May 2012, Week 2
May 2012, Week 1
April 2012, Week 4
April 2012, Week 3
April 2012, Week 2
April 2012, Week 1
March 2012, Week 5
March 2012, Week 4
March 2012, Week 3
March 2012, Week 2
March 2012, Week 1
February 2012, Week 4
February 2012, Week 3
February 2012, Week 2
February 2012, Week 1
January 2012, Week 5
January 2012, Week 4
January 2012, Week 1
December 2011, Week 3
December 2011, Week 2
November 2011, Week 4
November 2011, Week 3
November 2011, Week 2
November 2011, Week 1
October 2011, Week 5
October 2011, Week 3
October 2011, Week 2
October 2011, Week 1
September 2011, Week 5
September 2011, Week 4
September 2011, Week 3
September 2011, Week 2
September 2011, Week 1
August 2011, Week 5
August 2011, Week 4
August 2011, Week 3
August 2011, Week 2
August 2011, Week 1
July 2011, Week 5
July 2011, Week 4
July 2011, Week 3
July 2011, Week 2
July 2011, Week 1
June 2011, Week 5
June 2011, Week 4
June 2011, Week 3
June 2011, Week 1
May 2011, Week 5
May 2011, Week 4
May 2011, Week 3
May 2011, Week 2
May 2011, Week 1
April 2011, Week 4
April 2011, Week 3
April 2011, Week 1
March 2011, Week 5
March 2011, Week 2
March 2011, Week 1
February 2011, Week 4
February 2011, Week 3
February 2011, Week 2
February 2011, Week 1
January 2011, Week 4
January 2011, Week 3
January 2011, Week 2
December 2010, Week 4
December 2010, Week 3
December 2010, Week 2
December 2010, Week 1
November 2010, Week 5
November 2010, Week 4
November 2010, Week 3
November 2010, Week 2
November 2010, Week 1
October 2010, Week 4
October 2010, Week 3
October 2010, Week 2
October 2010, Week 1
September 2010, Week 5
September 2010, Week 4
September 2010, Week 3
September 2010, Week 2
August 2010, Week 5
August 2010, Week 4
August 2010, Week 3
August 2010, Week 2
August 2010, Week 1
July 2010, Week 5
July 2010, Week 3
June 2010, Week 5
June 2010, Week 4
May 2010, Week 4
May 2010, Week 1
April 2010, Week 4
April 2010, Week 3
April 2010, Week 1
March 2010, Week 3
March 2010, Week 2
March 2010, Week 1
February 2010, Week 4
February 2010, Week 2
February 2010, Week 1
January 2010, Week 4
January 2010, Week 3
January 2010, Week 2
January 2010, Week 1
December 2009, Week 3
December 2009, Week 2
December 2009, Week 1
November 2009, Week 5
November 2009, Week 4
November 2009, Week 3
November 2009, Week 2
November 2009, Week 1
October 2009, Week 3
September 2009, Week 3
September 2009, Week 1
July 2009, Week 4
July 2009, Week 2
July 2009, Week 1
June 2009, Week 5
June 2009, Week 3
May 2009, Week 4
May 2009, Week 3
May 2009, Week 1
April 2009, Week 5
April 2009, Week 2
April 2009, Week 1
March 2009, Week 5
March 2009, Week 4
March 2009, Week 2
March 2009, Week 1
February 2009, Week 3
February 2009, Week 2
February 2009, Week 1
December 2008, Week 3
November 2008, Week 4
November 2008, Week 3
November 2008, Week 2
November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 2
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.UNL.EDU

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager