Well said, Barry.  It would prove unconstitutional and elitist, but I'm
wondering if it shouldn't be necessary to pass a basic civics test in order
to vote.  Questions such as, 1.) On which continent is Iraq located?;  2.)
On which continent is the United States?;  3.)Name two sources of current
events that you use to make voting decisions?  (Note:  answering Oprah or
the Kardashians may exclude you from voting privileges for 5 years.)

I'm willing to bet there are a lot of voters who couldn't name the
continent the US is located on.

:)b




On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Barry K. MacKay <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> Hi, Jeff,****
>
> ** **
>
> You gave me a lot to think about and research.   ****
>
> ** **
>
> I already knew about the Thomas Jefferson quote: *"If a nation expects to
> be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was
> and never will be."   I think it illustrates what is part of my underlying
> thesis.  *
>
> * *
>
> *Coincidentally (and to bring in a SCIART-related topic) I recently
> picked up the current issue of Scientific American, attracted by the
> awesome cover art, showing a restoration portrait of an early Hominid, and
> have (after admiring the art throughout…we all have our priorities, eh?)
> been reading away at the articles, and doing this at the same time I’ve
> been reading the book I’ve several times mentioned, Idiot America, by
> Charles P. Pierce, Anchor Books, 2010, which I’m nearly finished (I always
> have several books and journals on the go, so am slow with any one of
> them), but it begins and starts with the Creationism Museum.   *
>
> * *
>
> *The contrast between the science, much of it “American” in origin and
> all of it predicated on a cause and effect universe whereby carefully
> demonstrated information derives from carefully demonstrated information,
> with lots of back-checking and revisions as new data, experiments,
> specimens and so on come forth…all to be found in Scientific American… and
> the kind of think that allows people to believe that humans rode on
> dinosaurs and Noah put baby dinosaurs in his ark, is beyond staggering.*
>
> * *
>
> *And I think it helps explain why what you define as a “republic” does
> not work.  Whatever else, the U.S. founding fathers envisioned, it included
> what we would probably consider an elitist governance in which
> well-educated, thoughtful white adult men voted, it being inconceivable
> that other people, women, blacks, would be intelligent enough to be
> entrusted with this responsibility.*
>
> * *
>
> *I think, furthermore, that they got it partly right – for the system to
> work and provide good governance comparable to what they had rejected, the
> electorate had to be realistic, to be able to think analytically and base
> opinion on demonstrable fact…intelligent (what they got wrong was in
> thinking only white males could be).    And I think the statistics cited by
> the likes of Pierce, Dawkins and others demonstrates that does not happen
> in the U.S. (or elsewhere, to be sure, but many countries that show
> staggering levels of stupidity also don’t produce magazines like Scientific
> American!).*
>
> * *
>
> *I did look up, as you advised, different definitions and “democracy” and
> “republic” and came to the perhaps incorrect conclusion that the U.S. is an
> inconsistent hybrid of both systems.   I am informed, by this research, why
> it seems so often that what I would consider “rights” (health care, safety)
> are not valued as much by the U.S., as they come at the expense of other
> “rights” (profiteering; owning guns).   I speak simplistically, but the
> bottom line is my values don’t change as a result of this knowledge.   I
> feel that the things that put individuals at greater risk are simply wrong,
> although we can argue what is the greater risk (high energy-dependent but
> very comfortable lifestyle vs climate change might be such an example).*
>
> * *
>
> *In this morning’s paper there was alarm because for the first time in
> three years Toronto had seen such a serious increase in homicides,
> including gun deaths (although at a time that experienced an overall
> decline, of ten percent, in crime).   In 2012 (to date, the year’s not
> quite over) Toronto had 33 shooting deaths, up by five from the previous
> year.*
>
> * *
>
> *Homicides from all causes were at 54.*
>
> * *
>
> *The U.S. city closest in size, climate, and the like to Toronto is our
> U.S. sister city, Chicago.  There they had 228 homicides.   *
>
> * *
>
> *I’m horrified by what happened in Toronto, and it is widely believed
> that since EVERY gun starts out legally owned (unless stolen from the
> factory or in transit to the store where it will be sold) I’m concerned
> about the future, notwithstanding a greatly thickened border, as handguns
> are smuggled across the border.   *
>
> * *
>
> *I am not arguing the concerns you raise; on the contrary, I’ve had
> similar concerns about what is going on in the U.S., where all the legal
> and moral progress from the Magna Carta seems to be increasingly
> irrelevant.  *
>
> * *
>
> *But since we both agree that guns won’t protect Americans from their own
> government, from the military industrial complex, surely at the very least
> rules and regulations (and actions, that gun recall in L.A., last week) are
> in order to protect Americans from a far greater risk to their survival
> than that posed by “Islamic fundamentalists”, for example.*
>
> * *
>
> *Politicians have long been afraid of challenging the NRA, and somehow
> compassion has simplistically become associated with “weakness”.   The
> sheer horror of Sandy Hook makes me hope that is what it will take to at
> least break the hold the NRA has had on forming policy by awarding, with
> truly effective support, the politicians who support its mandate to assist
> the gun industry in ever more sales, while effectively punishing
> politicians who advocate for laws and regulation.*
>
> * *
>
> *You mention eating game as a youth.  No need for rocket launchers,
> armor-penetrating bullets, semiautomatic and automatic weapons or extended
> magazines in order to put a partridge on a plate, venison in the freezer or
> perch in the frying pan.*
>
> * *
>
> *But you don’t say otherwise…we seem to be in agreement.*
>
> * *
>
> *I intend to do more research along the lines you’ve suggested, and
> thanks.*
>
> * *
>
> *Barry*
>
> * *
>
> ** **
>
> *Barry Kent MacKay*
>
> *Bird Artist, Illustrator*
>
> Studio: (905)-472-9731****
>
> http://www.barrykentmackay.ca
> [log in to unmask]****
>
> ** **
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * ***
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* SciArt-L Discussion List-for Natural Science Illustration-
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Swanson
> *Sent:* December-29-12 5:29 PM
>
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: [SCIART] [Tan]: tragedies was iPads****
>
> ** **
>
> A well thought out response, most of which I stand in agreement with.****
>
> ** **
>
> I am Canadian as well, and grew up on moose meat, venison, partridge and
> pickerel. Once I got a weapon for hunting, I took the manditory safety
> course. It has been at least 40 years since I owned or fired a gun, and as
> I said, I have no plans to do so in the future.****
>
> ** **
>
> There is no question, however, that the US government is presently being
> run as a criminal enterprise. HSBC caught laundering trillions in drug
> money, nobody goes to jail, company is fined far less than they profited.
> ATF and the Justice Department send huge quantities of guns to Mexican drug
> cartels under Operation Fast and Furious. Death toll in the tens of
> thousands. Bank fraud everywhere, with the Occupy movement brutalized under
> the supervision of the banks. Privacy laws stripped away, and people
> searched before getting on public transportation. Metro buses now have spy
> cameras and microphones as a matter of course. ****
>
> ** **
>
> You refer to the US as a democracy, but it was set up as a republic - and
> the distinction is important. I doubt anyone will believe it, but if you do
> a little research, I think you will find that the US has been under martial
> law since the Civil War, under the Trading with the Enemy Act. The "stars
> and stripes" flag is the flag of the US at war, with a completely different
> and forgotten flag indicating the US at peace, and under civil law.****
>
> ** **
>
> I predict that after a few more of these incidents, which will escalate in
> violence, a call will go out to have everyone surrender all their weapons.
> I would love to be wrong on this.****
>
> ** **
>
> Both political parties in the US are bought and paid for by the war
> profiteering shareholders who also own most of the media and entertainment
> industry. This makes an intelligent, open discussion pretty much
> impossible. The average American who is paying attention, is starting to
> realize that he's playing the part previously played by Indians and
> Palestinians. "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you." doesn't
> really cut it any more. So-called "entitlements" that people have paid into
> for their entire working lives are about to be flushed down the toilet
> while banking fraudsters are considered too big to fail and bailed out in
> the trillions. Trillions I might add, that are borrowed from those same
> banksters - at interest - to be paid back by Joe Average. Good trick.****
>
> ** **
>
> I agree that guns will never be the answer, because they are simply
> out-gunned. The American military is now mostly contracted out. Contracted
> means mercenary. These contractors have been proven to be murderers, human
> traffickers, embezzlers and drug traffickers, yet their contracts are
> renewed again and again. Families with a tradition of military service
> dating back to the Revolutionary War are telling their children to stay
> away from the military, because it is hopelessly corrupt. I don't think
> guns are the answer, as I said, but can understand people's reluctance to
> surrender what they have.****
>
> ** **
>
> The NRA is nothing but a bunch of psychopaths who represent the gun
> manufacturers, not the average gun owner. The Pentagon is their largest
> customer, so I think they they will, eventually, "see the light" on gun
> control.****
>
> ** **
>
> The US has a higher percentage of its population in prison than any other
> country, including China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or any other country - indeed
> ALL other countries combined. Corporations are cheering the use of
> prisoners as a cheap labor source to compete with 3rd world countries.
> These prisons, by the way, are now mostly privately (for profit) owned and
> there have been several cases of judges caught taking bribes to keep those
> prisons full.****
>
> ** **
>
> And still I say that armed resistance is a mistake for the simple reason
> that it will fail, and all traces of their admittedly ignored constitution
> will be swept away. I wish I had an alternative to offer, but sadly I do
> not. So I have nothing to offer those who want to hang on to their guns.**
> **
>
> ** **
>
> To those who think that gun control is the answer, I would simply say that
> Connecticut has very strict gun control laws and the mother who owned the
> guns was very conscientious about obeying those rules.****
>
> ** **
>
> I apologize in advance for those who find this whole thread upsetting. It
> upsets me as much or more than anyone else.****
>
> ** **
>
> Jeff
> .......................****
>
> Jeff K. Swanson****
>
> Swanson Creative****
>
> tel: (604) 469-1321****
>
> fax: (604) 469-1327****
>
> www.swansoncreative.ca****
>
> [log in to unmask]****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
>
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> On 2012-12-29, at 1:00 PM, "Barry K. MacKay" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:**
> **
>
>
>
> ****
>
> I am a gun-owner, and while I haven’t fired a gun in a long time, I do
> enjoy target shooting.   I’d never hunt, but in my youth I did collect
> zoological specimens.  I didn’t like it, and found other ways to obtain the
> specimens I used and still use in my artwork (and ultimately became so
> concerned about animal welfare as a result of that, that I worked towards
> animal protectionism, as well as environmentalism, and am a vegan).  I can
> safety-check, load, unload and clean most shotguns, rifles, pistols and
> revolvers, but wouldn’t have a clue about automatic and semiautomatic
> military weapons.****
>
>  ****
>
> No one knows how many guns there are in Canada, but the Royal Canadian
> Mounted Police (http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/res-rec/comp-eng.htm)
>  puts the figure at 7.4 million, with about 1.2 million being restricted
> under Canadian law, and most of those are handguns owned by collectors,
> target shooters and the like, and how they can be used is closely
> controlled. ****
>
>  ****
>
> Even a long gun cannot be carried openly in cars or other motorized
> vehicles…it has to be either broken down or in a case. ****
>
>  ****
>
> So no one is talking about eliminating firearms altogether, and I’m not
> disputing Ghandi’s quote.  Like him, speaking about India, I also don’t
> think that a foreign power should deprive American (or Canadian) citizens
> of any and all firearms.  But the U.S. is not a colony as India was at the
> time, nor under foreign rule.****
>
>  ****
>
> As a matter of fact, like Canada, it is a democracy, so has the option of
> voting the government out of power.  Americans do not have to shoot
> politicians although that does happen with alarming frequency, and seems
> not to achieve significant change in governance.****
>
>  ****
>
> There is certainly more than firearms responsible for what’s going on down
> there.  There is, again citing the RCMP, almost twice as many non-firearm
> homicides in the U.S., compared to Canada, which I emphasize is
> demographically, historically and geographically the country most similar
> to the U.S.  So Americans are more violent on average. ****
>
>  ****
>
> But the handgun homicide rate in the U.S. is 15.3 times higher in the
> U.S., than Canada…that is a huge difference.****
>
>  ****
>
> So while your friends may fear all those bullets that the U.S. government
> has being aimed at them, more innocents are being killed off than could be
> accomplished by terrorists.****
>
>  ****
>
> But let’s take  your American friends’ fears into consideration.  Do they
> really think that they are going to be fighting their own government,
> Syria-style?   If the U.S. government is in control of the military (which
> consists of American citizens) than I’m afraid that no matter how much fire
> power those citizens have, they are no match for the largest and costliest
> killing machine in the planet’s sad history.  ****
>
>  ****
>
> I believe the Second Amendment, as written covers that concern at any
> rate, by stating that the state has the right to have an armed militia.  I
> agree, and have never said otherwise.****
>
>  ****
>
> But the supreme court conservatives have interpreted that to mean that
> individuals have that right, and with all too few restrictions on types of
> weapons or how they may be used, and the results have been what I’d
> consider catastrophic.****
>
>  ****
>
> You state the current government endorses “Indefinite detention,
> perpetual war, corruption at the highest levels, and a presidential claim
> to the right to assassinate anyone anywhere, including Americans. Once they
> have all the guns, will that guarantee everyones safety?”****
>
>  ****
>
> I agree with the concern.  But they are nowhere near to having all the
> guns…far, far from it…and I take to heart the warning Dwight Eisenhower
> issued at the end of his presidency when he warned Americans about what he
> called “the military, industrial complex.”   There is a right wing party,
> the Democrats, and an unbelievably right wing party, the Republicans, and
> no balance from the left.   That is quite different from most other
> so-called “western”, industrialized, developed democracies, and it relates
> to a history that diverges from that of the rest of the developed
> world….the U.S. does incarcerate, for example, more of its own people than
> any other country.****
>
>  ****
>
> BTW, the NRA argued that since presidents are surrounded by guys with guns
> to protect them, children should receive similar service.  But it hasn’t
> worked.   A disproportionate number of American politicians have been shot
> even though surrounded by trained gunmen.  We’ve yet to assassinate so much
> as a single head of state!  ****
>
>  ****
>
> And yet…****
>
>  ****
>
> Relative to the rest of the world, including countries it has invaded or
> otherwise destabilized, the U.S.  is not a violent country.  There are
> other countries with far fewer weapons that are more dangerous than the
> U.S.; horrific dictatorships and cruelly greedy regimes.   Heck, when I
> reach the U.S. from field work in Latin America, I always feel a lot
> safer.    ****
>
>  ****
>
> But instead of looking downward, at those who are worse off, and being
> satisfied at not being as bad as some other countries, I’d sincerely like
> to see Americans strive to do better.  No one’s going to take their
> precious guns, but at least start with baby-step reforms to bring the
> situation under control, to try what is working elsewhere.   For 1989 to
> 1995, the average handgun homicide in the U.S. was 4.8 per 100,000 compared
> to 0.3 per 100,000 in Canada. ****
>
>  ****
>
> So why is that?   Do we agree that handgun homicides are not a good
> thing?  Since we are comparing apples to apples – handgun owners to handgun
> owners – I would think that it demonstrates that stricter regulations
> work…unless there is something in the water down there (or the beer up
> here, perhaps) that makes Americans more vicious, and I can’t think of
> anything.****
>
>  ****
>
> Finally, I’m not sure what you mean when you say that the shootings in
> Aurora and Sandy Hook “simply do not pass the smell test”?   I have gone
> online and looked at all sorts of commentary, but seen nothing to suggest
> that “serious questions raised by competent people outside the corporate
> media” cast any doubt that after said media (and I agree that too much of
> it IS “corporate”, and because of the mad rush for ratings and “scoops”
> early reporting was at times wildly inaccurate) got past the first rush of
> misinformation, has misled us on the essential facts.****
>
>  ****
>
> Cheers,****
>
>  ****
>
> Barry****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> *Barry Kent MacKay*****
>
> *Bird Artist, Illustrator*****
>
> Studio: (905)-472-9731****
>
> http://www.barrykentmackay.ca
> [log in to unmask]****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* SciArt-L Discussion List-for Natural Science Illustration-
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Swanson
> *Sent:* December-29-12 12:27 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: [SCIART] [Tan]: tragedies was iPads****
>
>  ****
>
> Well, there may be more to this than meets the eye.****
>
>  ****
>
> I do not own a gun, and am not contemplating any purchase in the future,
> though I used to hunt when I was younger.****
>
>  ****
>
> Friends in the US who do advocate gun ownership as a right (not a
> privilege) point to the fact that their incredibly corrupt government has
> purchased 1.5 Billion dun-dum bullets in the last year or so, just for
> Homeland Security. Other departments have order similar quantities. These
> hollow point bullets are illegal even in war, and since these are destined
> for Homeland "Security" for domestic use, I can understand their concern.*
> ***
>
>  ****
>
> To that I would add a quote, the source of which is very surprising:****
>
> "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon
> the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."    ****
>
>  ****
>
> Not to mention, that the shootings in Aurora and Sandy Hook simply do not
> pass the smell test. Before people jump down my throat, do a bit of
> searching for yourself online and evaluate the serious questions raised by
> competent people outside the corporate media. ****
>
>  ****
>
> I, for one do not see guns as a solution to anything, but am concerned
> when a government that is behaving as badly as this one, is demanding a
> monopoly on those guns. Indefinite detention, perpetual war, corruption at
> the highest levels, and a presidential claim to the right to assassinate
> anyone anywhere, including Americans. Once they have all the guns, will
> that guarantee everyones safety? I very much doubt it.****
>
>  ****
>
> Do not confuse comfort with freedom.****
>
>  ****
>
> The quote about the British, by the way, was from Gandhi.****
>
>  ****
>
> Tough subject.****
>
>  ****
>
> Jeff****
>
> .......................****
>
> Jeff K. Swanson****
>
> Swanson Creative****
>
> tel: (604) 469-1321****
>
> fax: (604) 469-1327****
>
> www.swansoncreative.ca****
>
> [log in to unmask]****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>
>
>
> ****
>
>  ****
>
> On 2012-12-28, at 4:52 PM, Bruce Bartrug <[log in to unmask]> wrote:****
>
>
>
>
> ****
>
> Well said, Barry.  The gun culture in this country is absurd.  I'll give
> you an excellent example.
>
> On Christmas Eve, a man walked through Portland, Maine, openly carrying
> the same rifle used in Connecticut.  The gun was loaded, had a magazine
> larger than normal, and was slung across his shoulder with a strap.  There
> were 65 phone calls to the police, who followed the man everywhere he
> went.  But get this.  In Maine, it is not illegal to carry a firearm
> openly, therefore *the police could not ask for the man's ID and could
> not ask if the gun were loaded.  Nor could they confiscate the weapon just
> to keep this guy from scaring the hell out of everyone.*
>
> That's just crazier than hell.  Something has to change here, and soon.
> The gun culture in America restricts our freedom, rather than "protecting"
> it.
>
> b
>
>
> ****
>
> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 8:07 AM, Barry K. MacKay <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:****
>
> Indeed.  It is a huge topic here in Canada, not only because of compassion
> for the victims, but because we know and are frustrated by the knowledge,
> that it is possible to live in a free country and with great geographic and
> demographic similarities and yet have far fewer innocents shot simply by
> implementing sensible gun regulations.****
>
> ________________________________________________****
>
> Need to leave or subscribe to the Sciart-L listserv? Follow the
> instructions at
> http://www.gnsi.org/resources/reviews/gnsi-sciart-l-listserv****
>
>  ****
>
> ________________________________________________****
>
> Need to leave or subscribe to the Sciart-L listserv? Follow the
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>
> ________________________________________________****
>
> Need to leave or subscribe to the Sciart-L listserv? Follow the
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>
> ** **
>
> ________________________________________________****
>
> Need to leave or subscribe to the Sciart-L listserv? Follow the
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>



-- 
Bruce Bartrug
Nobleboro, Maine, USA
[log in to unmask]
www.brucebartrug.com

The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but
because of those who look on and do nothing.  - Albert Einstein

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