PS: In this morning's Portland (Maine) Press Herald there was an article describing two deaths in an upper class neighborhood. A young couple argued with their landlord over vehicles in a driveway on a snow removal day. The landlord killed them both with a handgun. They were 18 and 19 years old. See, the NRA is right: guns don't kill people.....but angry people with guns do. b On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 5:11 PM, Bruce Bartrug <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Well said, Barry. It would prove unconstitutional and elitist, but I'm > wondering if it shouldn't be necessary to pass a basic civics test in order > to vote. Questions such as, 1.) On which continent is Iraq located?; 2.) > On which continent is the United States?; 3.)Name two sources of current > events that you use to make voting decisions? (Note: answering Oprah or > the Kardashians may exclude you from voting privileges for 5 years.) > > I'm willing to bet there are a lot of voters who couldn't name the > continent the US is located on. > > :)b > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Barry K. MacKay <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > >> Hi, Jeff,**** >> >> ** ** >> >> You gave me a lot to think about and research. **** >> >> ** ** >> >> I already knew about the Thomas Jefferson quote: *"If a nation expects >> to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never >> was and never will be." I think it illustrates what is part of my >> underlying thesis. * >> >> * * >> >> *Coincidentally (and to bring in a SCIART-related topic) I recently >> picked up the current issue of Scientific American, attracted by the >> awesome cover art, showing a restoration portrait of an early Hominid, and >> have (after admiring the art throughout…we all have our priorities, eh?) >> been reading away at the articles, and doing this at the same time I’ve >> been reading the book I’ve several times mentioned, Idiot America, by >> Charles P. Pierce, Anchor Books, 2010, which I’m nearly finished (I always >> have several books and journals on the go, so am slow with any one of >> them), but it begins and starts with the Creationism Museum. * >> >> * * >> >> *The contrast between the science, much of it “American” in origin and >> all of it predicated on a cause and effect universe whereby carefully >> demonstrated information derives from carefully demonstrated information, >> with lots of back-checking and revisions as new data, experiments, >> specimens and so on come forth…all to be found in Scientific American… and >> the kind of think that allows people to believe that humans rode on >> dinosaurs and Noah put baby dinosaurs in his ark, is beyond staggering.* >> >> * * >> >> *And I think it helps explain why what you define as a “republic” does >> not work. Whatever else, the U.S. founding fathers envisioned, it included >> what we would probably consider an elitist governance in which >> well-educated, thoughtful white adult men voted, it being inconceivable >> that other people, women, blacks, would be intelligent enough to be >> entrusted with this responsibility.* >> >> * * >> >> *I think, furthermore, that they got it partly right – for the system to >> work and provide good governance comparable to what they had rejected, the >> electorate had to be realistic, to be able to think analytically and base >> opinion on demonstrable fact…intelligent (what they got wrong was in >> thinking only white males could be). And I think the statistics cited by >> the likes of Pierce, Dawkins and others demonstrates that does not happen >> in the U.S. (or elsewhere, to be sure, but many countries that show >> staggering levels of stupidity also don’t produce magazines like Scientific >> American!).* >> >> * * >> >> *I did look up, as you advised, different definitions and “democracy” >> and “republic” and came to the perhaps incorrect conclusion that the U.S. >> is an inconsistent hybrid of both systems. I am informed, by this >> research, why it seems so often that what I would consider “rights” (health >> care, safety) are not valued as much by the U.S., as they come at the >> expense of other “rights” (profiteering; owning guns). I speak >> simplistically, but the bottom line is my values don’t change as a result >> of this knowledge. I feel that the things that put individuals at greater >> risk are simply wrong, although we can argue what is the greater risk (high >> energy-dependent but very comfortable lifestyle vs climate change might be >> such an example).* >> >> * * >> >> *In this morning’s paper there was alarm because for the first time in >> three years Toronto had seen such a serious increase in homicides, >> including gun deaths (although at a time that experienced an overall >> decline, of ten percent, in crime). In 2012 (to date, the year’s not >> quite over) Toronto had 33 shooting deaths, up by five from the previous >> year.* >> >> * * >> >> *Homicides from all causes were at 54.* >> >> * * >> >> *The U.S. city closest in size, climate, and the like to Toronto is our >> U.S. sister city, Chicago. There they had 228 homicides. * >> >> * * >> >> *I’m horrified by what happened in Toronto, and it is widely believed >> that since EVERY gun starts out legally owned (unless stolen from the >> factory or in transit to the store where it will be sold) I’m concerned >> about the future, notwithstanding a greatly thickened border, as handguns >> are smuggled across the border. * >> >> * * >> >> *I am not arguing the concerns you raise; on the contrary, I’ve had >> similar concerns about what is going on in the U.S., where all the legal >> and moral progress from the Magna Carta seems to be increasingly >> irrelevant. * >> >> * * >> >> *But since we both agree that guns won’t protect Americans from their >> own government, from the military industrial complex, surely at the very >> least rules and regulations (and actions, that gun recall in L.A., last >> week) are in order to protect Americans from a far greater risk to their >> survival than that posed by “Islamic fundamentalists”, for example.* >> >> * * >> >> *Politicians have long been afraid of challenging the NRA, and somehow >> compassion has simplistically become associated with “weakness”. The >> sheer horror of Sandy Hook makes me hope that is what it will take to at >> least break the hold the NRA has had on forming policy by awarding, with >> truly effective support, the politicians who support its mandate to assist >> the gun industry in ever more sales, while effectively punishing >> politicians who advocate for laws and regulation.* >> >> * * >> >> *You mention eating game as a youth. No need for rocket launchers, >> armor-penetrating bullets, semiautomatic and automatic weapons or extended >> magazines in order to put a partridge on a plate, venison in the freezer or >> perch in the frying pan.* >> >> * * >> >> *But you don’t say otherwise…we seem to be in agreement.* >> >> * * >> >> *I intend to do more research along the lines you’ve suggested, and >> thanks.* >> >> * * >> >> *Barry* >> >> * * >> >> ** ** >> >> *Barry Kent MacKay* >> >> *Bird Artist, Illustrator* >> >> Studio: (905)-472-9731**** >> >> http://www.barrykentmackay.ca >> [log in to unmask]**** >> >> ** ** >> >> * * >> >> * * >> >> * *** >> >> ** ** >> >> *From:* SciArt-L Discussion List-for Natural Science Illustration- >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Swanson >> *Sent:* December-29-12 5:29 PM >> >> *To:* [log in to unmask] >> *Subject:* Re: [SCIART] [Tan]: tragedies was iPads**** >> >> ** ** >> >> A well thought out response, most of which I stand in agreement with.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> I am Canadian as well, and grew up on moose meat, venison, partridge and >> pickerel. Once I got a weapon for hunting, I took the manditory safety >> course. It has been at least 40 years since I owned or fired a gun, and as >> I said, I have no plans to do so in the future.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> There is no question, however, that the US government is presently being >> run as a criminal enterprise. HSBC caught laundering trillions in drug >> money, nobody goes to jail, company is fined far less than they profited. >> ATF and the Justice Department send huge quantities of guns to Mexican drug >> cartels under Operation Fast and Furious. Death toll in the tens of >> thousands. Bank fraud everywhere, with the Occupy movement brutalized under >> the supervision of the banks. Privacy laws stripped away, and people >> searched before getting on public transportation. Metro buses now have spy >> cameras and microphones as a matter of course. **** >> >> ** ** >> >> You refer to the US as a democracy, but it was set up as a republic - and >> the distinction is important. I doubt anyone will believe it, but if you do >> a little research, I think you will find that the US has been under martial >> law since the Civil War, under the Trading with the Enemy Act. The "stars >> and stripes" flag is the flag of the US at war, with a completely different >> and forgotten flag indicating the US at peace, and under civil law.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> I predict that after a few more of these incidents, which will escalate >> in violence, a call will go out to have everyone surrender all their >> weapons. I would love to be wrong on this.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Both political parties in the US are bought and paid for by the war >> profiteering shareholders who also own most of the media and entertainment >> industry. This makes an intelligent, open discussion pretty much >> impossible. The average American who is paying attention, is starting to >> realize that he's playing the part previously played by Indians and >> Palestinians. "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you." doesn't >> really cut it any more. So-called "entitlements" that people have paid into >> for their entire working lives are about to be flushed down the toilet >> while banking fraudsters are considered too big to fail and bailed out in >> the trillions. Trillions I might add, that are borrowed from those same >> banksters - at interest - to be paid back by Joe Average. Good trick.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> I agree that guns will never be the answer, because they are simply >> out-gunned. The American military is now mostly contracted out. Contracted >> means mercenary. These contractors have been proven to be murderers, human >> traffickers, embezzlers and drug traffickers, yet their contracts are >> renewed again and again. Families with a tradition of military service >> dating back to the Revolutionary War are telling their children to stay >> away from the military, because it is hopelessly corrupt. I don't think >> guns are the answer, as I said, but can understand people's reluctance to >> surrender what they have.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> The NRA is nothing but a bunch of psychopaths who represent the gun >> manufacturers, not the average gun owner. The Pentagon is their largest >> customer, so I think they they will, eventually, "see the light" on gun >> control.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> The US has a higher percentage of its population in prison than any other >> country, including China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or any other country - indeed >> ALL other countries combined. Corporations are cheering the use of >> prisoners as a cheap labor source to compete with 3rd world countries. >> These prisons, by the way, are now mostly privately (for profit) owned and >> there have been several cases of judges caught taking bribes to keep those >> prisons full.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> And still I say that armed resistance is a mistake for the simple reason >> that it will fail, and all traces of their admittedly ignored constitution >> will be swept away. I wish I had an alternative to offer, but sadly I do >> not. So I have nothing to offer those who want to hang on to their guns.* >> *** >> >> ** ** >> >> To those who think that gun control is the answer, I would simply say >> that Connecticut has very strict gun control laws and the mother who owned >> the guns was very conscientious about obeying those rules.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> I apologize in advance for those who find this whole thread upsetting. It >> upsets me as much or more than anyone else.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Jeff >> .......................**** >> >> Jeff K. Swanson**** >> >> Swanson Creative**** >> >> tel: (604) 469-1321**** >> >> fax: (604) 469-1327**** >> >> www.swansoncreative.ca**** >> >> [log in to unmask]**** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> >> >> **** >> >> ** ** >> >> On 2012-12-29, at 1:00 PM, "Barry K. MacKay" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:* >> *** >> >> >> >> **** >> >> I am a gun-owner, and while I haven’t fired a gun in a long time, I do >> enjoy target shooting. I’d never hunt, but in my youth I did collect >> zoological specimens. I didn’t like it, and found other ways to obtain the >> specimens I used and still use in my artwork (and ultimately became so >> concerned about animal welfare as a result of that, that I worked towards >> animal protectionism, as well as environmentalism, and am a vegan). I can >> safety-check, load, unload and clean most shotguns, rifles, pistols and >> revolvers, but wouldn’t have a clue about automatic and semiautomatic >> military weapons.**** >> >> **** >> >> No one knows how many guns there are in Canada, but the Royal Canadian >> Mounted Police (http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/res-rec/comp-eng.htm) >> puts the figure at 7.4 million, with about 1.2 million being restricted >> under Canadian law, and most of those are handguns owned by collectors, >> target shooters and the like, and how they can be used is closely >> controlled. **** >> >> **** >> >> Even a long gun cannot be carried openly in cars or other motorized >> vehicles…it has to be either broken down or in a case. **** >> >> **** >> >> So no one is talking about eliminating firearms altogether, and I’m not >> disputing Ghandi’s quote. Like him, speaking about India, I also don’t >> think that a foreign power should deprive American (or Canadian) citizens >> of any and all firearms. But the U.S. is not a colony as India was at the >> time, nor under foreign rule.**** >> >> **** >> >> As a matter of fact, like Canada, it is a democracy, so has the option of >> voting the government out of power. Americans do not have to shoot >> politicians although that does happen with alarming frequency, and seems >> not to achieve significant change in governance.**** >> >> **** >> >> There is certainly more than firearms responsible for what’s going on >> down there. There is, again citing the RCMP, almost twice as many >> non-firearm homicides in the U.S., compared to Canada, which I emphasize is >> demographically, historically and geographically the country most similar >> to the U.S. So Americans are more violent on average. **** >> >> **** >> >> But the handgun homicide rate in the U.S. is 15.3 times higher in the >> U.S., than Canada…that is a huge difference.**** >> >> **** >> >> So while your friends may fear all those bullets that the U.S. government >> has being aimed at them, more innocents are being killed off than could be >> accomplished by terrorists.**** >> >> **** >> >> But let’s take your American friends’ fears into consideration. Do they >> really think that they are going to be fighting their own government, >> Syria-style? If the U.S. government is in control of the military (which >> consists of American citizens) than I’m afraid that no matter how much fire >> power those citizens have, they are no match for the largest and costliest >> killing machine in the planet’s sad history. **** >> >> **** >> >> I believe the Second Amendment, as written covers that concern at any >> rate, by stating that the state has the right to have an armed militia. I >> agree, and have never said otherwise.**** >> >> **** >> >> But the supreme court conservatives have interpreted that to mean that >> individuals have that right, and with all too few restrictions on types of >> weapons or how they may be used, and the results have been what I’d >> consider catastrophic.**** >> >> **** >> >> You state the current government endorses “Indefinite detention, >> perpetual war, corruption at the highest levels, and a presidential claim >> to the right to assassinate anyone anywhere, including Americans. Once they >> have all the guns, will that guarantee everyones safety?”**** >> >> **** >> >> I agree with the concern. But they are nowhere near to having all the >> guns…far, far from it…and I take to heart the warning Dwight Eisenhower >> issued at the end of his presidency when he warned Americans about what he >> called “the military, industrial complex.” There is a right wing party, >> the Democrats, and an unbelievably right wing party, the Republicans, and >> no balance from the left. That is quite different from most other >> so-called “western”, industrialized, developed democracies, and it relates >> to a history that diverges from that of the rest of the developed >> world….the U.S. does incarcerate, for example, more of its own people than >> any other country.**** >> >> **** >> >> BTW, the NRA argued that since presidents are surrounded by guys with >> guns to protect them, children should receive similar service. But it >> hasn’t worked. A disproportionate number of American politicians have >> been shot even though surrounded by trained gunmen. We’ve yet to >> assassinate so much as a single head of state! **** >> >> **** >> >> And yet…**** >> >> **** >> >> Relative to the rest of the world, including countries it has invaded or >> otherwise destabilized, the U.S. is not a violent country. There are >> other countries with far fewer weapons that are more dangerous than the >> U.S.; horrific dictatorships and cruelly greedy regimes. Heck, when I >> reach the U.S. from field work in Latin America, I always feel a lot >> safer. **** >> >> **** >> >> But instead of looking downward, at those who are worse off, and being >> satisfied at not being as bad as some other countries, I’d sincerely like >> to see Americans strive to do better. No one’s going to take their >> precious guns, but at least start with baby-step reforms to bring the >> situation under control, to try what is working elsewhere. For 1989 to >> 1995, the average handgun homicide in the U.S. was 4.8 per 100,000 compared >> to 0.3 per 100,000 in Canada. **** >> >> **** >> >> So why is that? Do we agree that handgun homicides are not a good >> thing? Since we are comparing apples to apples – handgun owners to handgun >> owners – I would think that it demonstrates that stricter regulations >> work…unless there is something in the water down there (or the beer up >> here, perhaps) that makes Americans more vicious, and I can’t think of >> anything.**** >> >> **** >> >> Finally, I’m not sure what you mean when you say that the shootings in >> Aurora and Sandy Hook “simply do not pass the smell test”? I have gone >> online and looked at all sorts of commentary, but seen nothing to suggest >> that “serious questions raised by competent people outside the corporate >> media” cast any doubt that after said media (and I agree that too much of >> it IS “corporate”, and because of the mad rush for ratings and “scoops” >> early reporting was at times wildly inaccurate) got past the first rush of >> misinformation, has misled us on the essential facts.**** >> >> **** >> >> Cheers,**** >> >> **** >> >> Barry**** >> >> **** >> >> **** >> >> *Barry Kent MacKay***** >> >> *Bird Artist, Illustrator***** >> >> Studio: (905)-472-9731**** >> >> http://www.barrykentmackay.ca >> [log in to unmask]**** >> >> **** >> >> **** >> >> **** >> >> **** >> >> **** >> >> **** >> >> **** >> >> **** >> >> *From:* SciArt-L Discussion List-for Natural Science Illustration- >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Swanson >> *Sent:* December-29-12 12:27 PM >> *To:* [log in to unmask] >> *Subject:* Re: [SCIART] [Tan]: tragedies was iPads**** >> >> **** >> >> Well, there may be more to this than meets the eye.**** >> >> **** >> >> I do not own a gun, and am not contemplating any purchase in the future, >> though I used to hunt when I was younger.**** >> >> **** >> >> Friends in the US who do advocate gun ownership as a right (not a >> privilege) point to the fact that their incredibly corrupt government has >> purchased 1.5 Billion dun-dum bullets in the last year or so, just for >> Homeland Security. Other departments have order similar quantities. These >> hollow point bullets are illegal even in war, and since these are destined >> for Homeland "Security" for domestic use, I can understand their concern. >> **** >> >> **** >> >> To that I would add a quote, the source of which is very surprising:**** >> >> "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon >> the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." **** >> >> **** >> >> Not to mention, that the shootings in Aurora and Sandy Hook simply do not >> pass the smell test. Before people jump down my throat, do a bit of >> searching for yourself online and evaluate the serious questions raised by >> competent people outside the corporate media. **** >> >> **** >> >> I, for one do not see guns as a solution to anything, but am concerned >> when a government that is behaving as badly as this one, is demanding a >> monopoly on those guns. Indefinite detention, perpetual war, corruption at >> the highest levels, and a presidential claim to the right to assassinate >> anyone anywhere, including Americans. Once they have all the guns, will >> that guarantee everyones safety? I very much doubt it.**** >> >> **** >> >> Do not confuse comfort with freedom.**** >> >> **** >> >> The quote about the British, by the way, was from Gandhi.**** >> >> **** >> >> Tough subject.**** >> >> **** >> >> Jeff**** >> >> .......................**** >> >> Jeff K. Swanson**** >> >> Swanson Creative**** >> >> tel: (604) 469-1321**** >> >> fax: (604) 469-1327**** >> >> www.swansoncreative.ca**** >> >> [log in to unmask]**** >> >> **** >> >> **** >> >> >> >> >> **** >> >> **** >> >> On 2012-12-28, at 4:52 PM, Bruce Bartrug <[log in to unmask]> wrote:**** >> >> >> >> >> **** >> >> Well said, Barry. The gun culture in this country is absurd. I'll give >> you an excellent example. >> >> On Christmas Eve, a man walked through Portland, Maine, openly carrying >> the same rifle used in Connecticut. The gun was loaded, had a magazine >> larger than normal, and was slung across his shoulder with a strap. There >> were 65 phone calls to the police, who followed the man everywhere he >> went. But get this. In Maine, it is not illegal to carry a firearm >> openly, therefore *the police could not ask for the man's ID and could >> not ask if the gun were loaded. Nor could they confiscate the weapon just >> to keep this guy from scaring the hell out of everyone.* >> >> That's just crazier than hell. Something has to change here, and soon. >> The gun culture in America restricts our freedom, rather than "protecting" >> it. >> >> b >> >> >> **** >> >> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 8:07 AM, Barry K. MacKay <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote:**** >> >> Indeed. It is a huge topic here in Canada, not only because of >> compassion for the victims, but because we know and are frustrated by the >> knowledge, that it is possible to live in a free country and with great >> geographic and demographic similarities and yet have far fewer innocents >> shot simply by implementing sensible gun regulations.**** >> >> ________________________________________________**** >> >> Need to leave or subscribe to the Sciart-L listserv? Follow the >> instructions at >> http://www.gnsi.org/resources/reviews/gnsi-sciart-l-listserv**** >> >> **** >> >> ________________________________________________**** >> >> Need to leave or subscribe to the Sciart-L listserv? Follow the >> instructions at >> http://www.gnsi.org/resources/reviews/gnsi-sciart-l-listserv**** >> >> ________________________________________________**** >> >> Need to leave or subscribe to the Sciart-L listserv? Follow the >> instructions at >> http://www.gnsi.org/resources/reviews/gnsi-sciart-l-listserv**** >> >> ** ** >> >> ________________________________________________**** >> >> Need to leave or subscribe to the Sciart-L listserv? Follow the >> instructions at >> http://www.gnsi.org/resources/reviews/gnsi-sciart-l-listserv**** >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> Need to leave or subscribe to the Sciart-L listserv? Follow the >> instructions at >> http://www.gnsi.org/resources/reviews/gnsi-sciart-l-listserv >> > > > > -- > Bruce Bartrug > Nobleboro, Maine, USA > [log in to unmask] > www.brucebartrug.com > > The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but > because of those who look on and do nothing. - Albert Einstein > -- Bruce Bartrug Nobleboro, Maine, USA [log in to unmask] www.brucebartrug.com The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. - Albert Einstein Need to leave or subscribe to the Sciart-L listserv? Follow the instructions at http://citnews.unl.edu/presentmethods_lana/listserv/index.html