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Thank you for the specific on ph.  The question I have is does the salt 
do anything to prevent  botulinum or does it just provide a more

favorable and competitive environment for the lactic acid bacteria ie 
preventing other things from growing until the ph gets right.

<!-- @page { margin: 0.79in } P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } --> faverible 
enviroment for the On 7/21/2013 8:02 PM, Gary and Virginia Phillips wrote

> Your local food safety person chiming in, here:
>
> The biggest risk with pickled foods comes from the anaerobic 
> environment, not one in which oxygen gets in.
> Clostridium botulinum, the bacterium that causes botulism, grows only 
> in an anaerobic environment.
>
> Pickling depends on acids (whether lactic acid from fermentation or 
> added in the form of vinegar [acetic acid] or citric acid or the like) 
> to inhibit the growth of C. botulinum in the anaerobic environment of 
> the jar. As long as your final product pH is below 4.6 at equilibrium 
> (the point at which the acids have thoroughly penetrated all of the 
> foods and the pH is constant throughout the product), C. botulinum 
> cannot grow.
>
> Pickling solutions are usually added to the fruits or vegetables hot, 
> to kill any vegetative cells of C. botulinum that might be present on 
> the food. The bacterium is ubiquitous in our environment in soil and 
> other places, and must be assumed to be on the product.
>
> Once the vegetative cells have been killed, all that remains are the 
> C. botulinum cells that have formed a protective spore coat. These are 
> inert, but will come out of the spore coat and form vegetative cells, 
> which produce the deadly toxin, if the environment allows. That 
> environment would be warmer than 45 degrees F (5C), anaerobic (like in 
> a jar) and low-acid (above 4.6 pH.)
>
> Properly acidified foods will be shelf-stable. Acidified foods in 
> hermetically sealed containers for service or sale to the general 
> public must come from an approved processing plant.
>
> I recommend that folks who want to make pickles for service to large 
> groups of people depend on refrigeration for bacterial control, rather 
> than acidification through fermentation or addition of food acids.
>
> Botulism is a deadly disease. Incidence is rare, but it is among the 
> most fatal of foodborne illnesses.
>
> Let me know if folks need more details.
>
> Mistress Gillian Warrender
> mka Virginia Phillips, Environmental Public Health Specialist.
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Ségnat ingen Fháeláin
> Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 11:05 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] pickles
>
> Fermentation is supposed to occur in an anaerobic environment. When 
> you use
> a method that might allow oxygen into the mix,  other bacteria can occur
> that are really unhealthy.     In the past they  used oil or sometimes 
> made
> a paste of flour and water and sealed the tops of the ferments that way,
> too.  If you look in  lot of the old still room books there are 
> instructions
> on how to do it.
>
> I know that this isn't a period practice and it might be frowned upon but
> they make fermentation jars for such things now that use jars that seal
> tightly and brewers airlocks.  While I am all about learning how they did
> things in period,  a lot of people died  from exposure to foodborn 
> bacteria
> in the Middle Ages.    Maybe in this case, using the  more modern 
> method to
> make your period ingredient, would be prudent.    You could use all 
> the same
> ingredients and just put them in one of these jars.
>
> I made jars that resemble the Pickl-it jars they sell online by getting
> ahold of some of the fido canning jars and drilling 1/2 inch holes in the
> lids and  putting a rubber grommet in the hole to insert the airlock 
> into.
>
>
> I have pickled key limes and lemons and they are amazing.  I am sure they
> would last for a very long time, if we didn't like them so much.     I 
> just
> like to be safe.
>
> YIS
>
> Ségnat
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Historical Recreation in the Kingdom of Calontir
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stefan li Rous
> Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 1:18 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] pickles
>
> Okay, more on this technique, at least for lemons. I was considering 
> these
> dried or salted, so didn't think of this file. but I guess you could
> consider them pickled.
> presrvd-lemons-msg(45K) 10/29/11 Dried, pickled and salted preserved 
> lemons.
> http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-FRUITS/presrvd-lemons-msg.html
>
> ****