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Neil et al - The wide date range on that MCZ Lep is an artifact of our data
entry. The specimen had no verbatim date, so it got the our default date
range in data entry. Unfortunately it's too time-costly to ask data
enterers to do this sort of research and date restriction upon initial data
entry -- much more efficient later on when you have aggregated events and
localities to clean in bulk.

And yes, Margaret is right - the Thayer Expedition was a big MCZ expedition
to Brazil in late 1800s; there is documentation on this. We haven't done a
project doing research-based date-narrowing for our existing events yet,
but I can take a look at our Thayer Expedition events! :)

Rachel

On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:36 PM Neil Stanley Cobb <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> All the records by MCZ (example below) that  I looked up had no date and
> the original collecting date range was (1700-01-01 - 2013-12-31)
>
>
>
> Google search suggested Thayer Expedition. Scientific Results of a Journey
> in Brazil. by L. Agassiz and His Travelling Companions. Geology and
> Physical Geography of Brazil. with Illustrations and Maps - Scholar's
> Choice Edition
>
>
>
> If anyone has access to the book it would be nice to put a more accurate
> date range on these.
>
>
>
> *catalog #:* 102224
>
> *Taxon:* *Hermeuptychia hermes (Fabricius, 1775)* (Fabricius, 1775)
> *Family:* Nymphalidae
>
> *Determiner:* [no agent data]
>
> [image: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__scan-2Dbugs.org_portal_images_plus-5Fsm.png&d=DwIFaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=ktTDDnyLO7iDXHW9jkQr5ZpD2PvkDyM2uKF5hX8j6ug&s=JKn16S5lBeTNYtebK3RRm24j0G2ylj6PK2ZUbRTG-OU&e= ] Show
> Determination History
>
> *Collector:* Dr. Teuscher, Thayer Expedition
>
> *Verbatim Date: *[no verbatim date data]
>
> *Locality:* Brazil, Rio de Janeiro, Cantagalo (=Canto Gallo)
>
> -21.975104  -42.366667 +-3036m.  WGS84
>
> *Verbatim Coordinates: *decimal degrees
>
> *Individual Count:* 1
>
> *Preparations:* whole animal (pinned)
>
> *Disposition: *in collection
>
> *Link to Source:* MCZ #102224
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mczbase.mcz.harvard.edu_guid_MCZ-3AEnt-3A102224&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=3RZEMbIZ3iyA5GVyMxvfG7fBhVx8xuOg88wrCoMa13Y&e=>
>
> *Dynamic Properties: *{}
>
> *Usage Rights:* CC BY-NC 4.0 (Attribution-Non-Commercial International)
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__creativecommons.org_licenses_by-2Dnc_4.0_&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=4qK2xVLyNdm70v2OtHbPZfRm3BYy3GElxFnPfVyVn74&e=>
>
> *Rights Holder:* President and Fellows of Harvard College
>
> *Access Rights:* The publisher and rights holder of this work is Museum
> of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University. Copyright © 2018 President and
> Fellows of Harvard College, Some Rights Reserved. This work is licensed
> under a Creative Commons Attribution Non Commercial (CC-BY-NC) 4.0 License.
>
> *Record Id:* fbed0064-3d40-4417-a336-1f24b4fd4dc3
>
> *Occurrence ID (GUID):* MCZ:Ent:102224
>
> For additional information on this occurrence, please contact: [log in to unmask]
> ([log in to unmask])
> <[log in to unmask]:%20102224%20()&[log in to unmask]&body=Specimen%20being%20referenced:%20http://scan-bugs.org/portal/collections/individual/index.php?occid=37197020>
>
> Do you see an error? If so, errors can be fixed using the Occurrence
> Editor.
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__scan-2Dbugs.org_portal_collections_editor_occurrenceeditor.php-3Foccid-3D37197020&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=_gdTPOPKKEO13eAvYYqO5L5txm6RJCbwtehd5aCzQaU&e=>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Margaret Thayer <[log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 7, 2020 2:24 PM
> *To:* Neil Stanley Cobb <[log in to unmask]>; [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: database and collector's names
>
>
>
> Speaking up as Margaret K Thayer :-)  I'm pretty sure that "Thayer
> Expedition" refers to a large set of records from the 1800s and thus a very
> different Thayer - I believe John E., but I'm not positive.
>
>
>
> Getting old, but not that old!
>
> Margaret
>
>
>
>
>
> *Margaret K. Thayer, Ph.D.*  she/her
>
> Curator Emerita and Lecturer (Committee on Evolutionary Biology)
>
> Field Museum and University of Chicago
>
> O: 312.665.7741 (direct)
>
>
>
> Field Museum
>
> 1400 S. Lake Shore Drive
> Chicago IL 60605
>
> fieldmuseum.org
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__fieldmuseum.org&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=m29XDteuQNqheNj302hqOFU66R9bBS5yFjYxjw2EAn0&e=> FMNH
> personal web page
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__fieldmuseum.org_users_margaret-2Dthayer&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=zZT__VrQ3afTf2UoadsykP5OmVlN-5i9Zi3nObDeXe8&e=>
>
>
> FMNH Insects collection database
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.fieldmuseum.org_explore_department_zoology_insects_collections&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=MIZXfmpsYS4oLS5eLjJg1BDJiafoeonKOLdXLGBW4MM&e=>
>  Austral Staphylinidae & Staphyliniformia
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__archive.fieldmuseum.org_peet-5Fstaph_&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=V5XLXhNwRjJaw6vo9oOVXtmknQ6vlk35cgEkaPyIznU&e=>
>
>
>
>
>
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__fieldmuseum.org&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=m29XDteuQNqheNj302hqOFU66R9bBS5yFjYxjw2EAn0&e=>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 6:33 PM Neil Stanley Cobb <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Rachel,
>
>
>
> I wish this was available in all the cms systems and/or a centralized
> table that everyone could access.  So picking up on one of Crystal’s
> examples of M. Thayer, the collector Margaret Kathryn Thayer has specimens
> deposited in a number of museums under M. Thayer, M. K. Thayer, Thayer
> expedition?? (or is that a separate butterfly person?).  So if there was a
> shared vetted table then that could be available to the community like
> GeoLocate.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Neil
>
>
>
> *From:* Rachel Hawkins <[log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 6, 2020 4:08 PM
> *To:* Neil Stanley Cobb <[log in to unmask]>
> *Cc:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: database and collector's names
>
>
>
> Neil - Paul Morris would definitely be the one to talk to on that. As far
> as I can tell, our specimen records link to the agent table directly. Each
> agent record has multiple names that we can use to locate the right agent
> depending on variants. See below for a screenshot example from MCZbase. The
> "preferred name" is what shows up for specimen records. "Author" names show
> up with publications.
>
>
>
> I wish we had a verbatim agent field, but like Crystal noted, we might
> have a verbatim label transcription attribute or remark that captures that
> information elsewhere.
>
> [image: Screenshot (214).png]
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 6:32 PM Neil Stanley Cobb <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> So I would put it into dynamicProperties and ideally it would be in json
> format – Katja would know.
>
>
>
> I assume the MCZ "master" agent record was created by Paul Morris.  It
> would be interesting to see where that capability is for all cms systems.
> I like putting in verbatim agent in a master table better than the dynamicProperties
> option, but is the master agent table only available in the MCZ database?
>
>
>
> *From:* Entomological Collections Network Listserve <
> [log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Zhuang, Mingna
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 6, 2020 3:27 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: database and collector's names
>
>
>
> ​Hi Christy,
>
>
>
> We also do things similar to MCZ in terms of attaching collector names
> that are obvious. For ones that are not obvious, the system we use (Arctos)
> has "verbatim collector" as an attribute. SCAN harvests our data from
> Arctos and puts it into "Dynamic properties" when you view the full record
> details.
>
>
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Vicky (Mingna) Zhuang Ph. D.
>
> UTEP Biodiversity Collections Manager
>
> B209 Biology Building
>
> Biological Sciences
>
> University of Texas El Paso
>
> 500 University Ave
>
> El Paso, TX, 79968
>
> Phone: 915-747-5479
>
> Instagram: @utepbc
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__twitter.com_utepbc&d=DwMFAw&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=feDfmunsU8DIOiALi6Yd14f7yOfi-nThKiMgyNNKbnM&s=z4cGK6FPK7vtJcUDb6f_9B7IQoRCBBYrtAd4KLx0c8E&e=>
>  twitter: @utepbc
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.instagram.com_utepbc_&d=DwMFAw&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=feDfmunsU8DIOiALi6Yd14f7yOfi-nThKiMgyNNKbnM&s=CInhk_B4Ym2GQ66VyW5W5uGl5AI2pCrOZMx-CMiY738&e=>
>  Facebook: UTEP Biodiversity Collections
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_utepbiodiversitycollections_&d=DwMFAw&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=feDfmunsU8DIOiALi6Yd14f7yOfi-nThKiMgyNNKbnM&s=4FeLo94MNeXtA_z7-IEU9xYi3oVF-PpnUEA50iVIyf4&e=>
>
> Website
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.utep.edu_biodiversity_&d=DwMFAw&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=feDfmunsU8DIOiALi6Yd14f7yOfi-nThKiMgyNNKbnM&s=78Gb3dvxhXfVskg7jn5FaL-apZ2tRSKETlQdzc427xc&e=>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Entomological Collections Network Listserve <
> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Maier, Crystal <
> [log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 6, 2020 4:13 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: database and collector's names
>
>
>
> Hi Christy,
>
>
>
> We don't have a "verbatim collector" field in MCZBase. We attach the
> collector name to the specimen that best fits the specimen label, unless
> there is some ambiguity.
>
>
>
> If the label says "J. Smith" I will attach a person [agent] called "J.
> Smith", unless there's come context that says otherwise.
>
> If it just says "Smith" we attach a person [agent] called "Smith",  unless
> there's come context that says otherwise.
>
> If it says "M. Thayer" [sorry, Margaret!] we'll attach the person [agent]
> "Margaret Thayer" since that's a distinct enough name.
>
>
>
> One can add taxonomic or institutional knowledge to help guide, but when
> in doubt, I would go with a more general person [agent]
>
>
>
> This is a case for having either a "verbatim label" field for the
> specimen, or label images attached to the record that serve as a voucher in
> cases of interpretation.
>
>
>
> Hope that makes sense!
>
>
>
> Crystal
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 6:06 PM Christy Bills <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Quick question:
>
>
>
> When you are databasing specimens, if the label has a collector's
> initials, or some other shortened version of their name, but you know who
> it is, do you transcribe into the database who you are 99% sure the
> collector is or do you faithfully record the label data exactly as is?
>
>
>
> We are using Symbiota/SCAN and I don't see a field where it would be
> appropriate to make a notation that we made that assumption (like "verbatim
> collector data").
>
>
>
> Is this just me?  tbh, I'm finding it difficult to concentrate since this
> has all gone down!
>
> Happy to get replies just to me so we don't clutter this list.
>
>
>
> Thank you!
>
>
>
>
> Christy Bills
> Invertebrate Collections Manager
> Natural History Museum of Utah
> 301 Wakara Way
> Salt Lake City, Utah 84108
>
> pronouns: she/her
>
>
>
>
>
>    \     /
>     \   /
>      0 0
>    -{   }-
>    -{   }-
>    -(    )-
>      / \
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Crystal A. Maier, Ph.D.
>
> Curatorial Associate, Entomology
>
> Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University
>
> 26 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA, 02138 U.S.A.
>
>
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
> +1-617-496-1055
>
>
>
> --
>
> Rachel L. Hawkins
>
>
>
> Curatorial Assistant
>
> Entomology Dept. and Pierce Lab
>
> Museum of Comparative Zoology
>
> Harvard University
>
> 26 Oxford St.
>
> Cambridge MA 02138
>
>

-- 
Rachel L. Hawkins

Curatorial Assistant
Entomology Dept. and Pierce Lab
Museum of Comparative Zoology
Harvard University
26 Oxford St.
Cambridge MA 02138