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Thanks Rachel, it was a nice diversion to read about the expedition and the follow up documentation from the link that Scott provided. The MCZ specimens look great even after 153+ years. Although I stopped perusing about the expedition when I zoomed to one of the collection sites on Google Earth and saw all the deforestation.

Neil

“Are there 200,000 species of arthropods in North America?”

From: Rachel Hawkins <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2020 3:59 PM
To: Neil Stanley Cobb <[log in to unmask]>
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: database and collector's names

Neil et al - The wide date range on that MCZ Lep is an artifact of our data entry. The specimen had no verbatim date, so it got the our default date range in data entry. Unfortunately it's too time-costly to ask data enterers to do this sort of research and date restriction upon initial data entry -- much more efficient later on when you have aggregated events and localities to clean in bulk.

And yes, Margaret is right - the Thayer Expedition was a big MCZ expedition to Brazil in late 1800s; there is documentation on this. We haven't done a project doing research-based date-narrowing for our existing events yet, but I can take a look at our Thayer Expedition events! :)

Rachel

On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:36 PM Neil Stanley Cobb <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
All the records by MCZ (example below) that  I looked up had no date and the original collecting date range was (1700-01-01 - 2013-12-31)

Google search suggested Thayer Expedition. Scientific Results of a Journey in Brazil. by L. Agassiz and His Travelling Companions. Geology and Physical Geography of Brazil. with Illustrations and Maps - Scholar's Choice Edition

If anyone has access to the book it would be nice to put a more accurate date range on these.

catalog #: 102224
Taxon: Hermeuptychia hermes (Fabricius, 1775) (Fabricius, 1775)
Family: Nymphalidae
Determiner: [no agent data]
[https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__scan-2Dbugs.org_portal_images_plus-5Fsm.png&d=DwIGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=d7sJ00H0DknxuH04wra-6GmiRwq_ab6Fl_-qZ4zTpxU&s=9sQnFp8gmn5z7aPtk3AF4RL5XoNUTbg_PZdUbqMEjx0&e= ] Show Determination History
Collector: Dr. Teuscher, Thayer Expedition
Verbatim Date: [no verbatim date data]
Locality: Brazil, Rio de Janeiro, Cantagalo (=Canto Gallo)
-21.975104  -42.366667 +-3036m.  WGS84
Verbatim Coordinates: decimal degrees
Individual Count: 1
Preparations: whole animal (pinned)
Disposition: in collection
Link to Source: MCZ #102224<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mczbase.mcz.harvard.edu_guid_MCZ-3AEnt-3A102224&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=3RZEMbIZ3iyA5GVyMxvfG7fBhVx8xuOg88wrCoMa13Y&e=>
Dynamic Properties: {}
Usage Rights: CC BY-NC 4.0 (Attribution-Non-Commercial International)<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__creativecommons.org_licenses_by-2Dnc_4.0_&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=4qK2xVLyNdm70v2OtHbPZfRm3BYy3GElxFnPfVyVn74&e=>
Rights Holder: President and Fellows of Harvard College
Access Rights: The publisher and rights holder of this work is Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University. Copyright © 2018 President and Fellows of Harvard College, Some Rights Reserved. This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution Non Commercial (CC-BY-NC) 4.0 License.
Record Id: fbed0064-3d40-4417-a336-1f24b4fd4dc3
Occurrence ID (GUID): MCZ:Ent:102224
For additional information on this occurrence, please contact: [log in to unmask] ([log in to unmask])<mailto:[log in to unmask]:%20102224%20()&[log in to unmask]&body=Specimen%20being%20referenced:%20http://scan-bugs.org/portal/collections/individual/index.php?occid=37197020>
Do you see an error? If so, errors can be fixed using the Occurrence Editor.<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__scan-2Dbugs.org_portal_collections_editor_occurrenceeditor.php-3Foccid-3D37197020&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=_gdTPOPKKEO13eAvYYqO5L5txm6RJCbwtehd5aCzQaU&e=>


From: Margaret Thayer <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2020 2:24 PM
To: Neil Stanley Cobb <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>; [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: database and collector's names

Speaking up as Margaret K Thayer :-)  I'm pretty sure that "Thayer Expedition" refers to a large set of records from the 1800s and thus a very different Thayer - I believe John E., but I'm not positive.

Getting old, but not that old!
Margaret


Margaret K. Thayer, Ph.D.  she/her
Curator Emerita and Lecturer (Committee on Evolutionary Biology)
Field Museum and University of Chicago
O: 312.665.7741 (direct)

Field Museum
1400 S. Lake Shore Drive
Chicago IL 60605
fieldmuseum.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__fieldmuseum.org&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=m29XDteuQNqheNj302hqOFU66R9bBS5yFjYxjw2EAn0&e=> FMNH personal web page<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__fieldmuseum.org_users_margaret-2Dthayer&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=zZT__VrQ3afTf2UoadsykP5OmVlN-5i9Zi3nObDeXe8&e=>
FMNH Insects collection database<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.fieldmuseum.org_explore_department_zoology_insects_collections&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=MIZXfmpsYS4oLS5eLjJg1BDJiafoeonKOLdXLGBW4MM&e=>    Austral Staphylinidae & Staphyliniformia<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__archive.fieldmuseum.org_peet-5Fstaph_&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=V5XLXhNwRjJaw6vo9oOVXtmknQ6vlk35cgEkaPyIznU&e=>

[https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.fieldmuseum.org_sites_default_files_field-2Dmuseum-2Dlogo-5F2018.png&d=DwIGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=d7sJ00H0DknxuH04wra-6GmiRwq_ab6Fl_-qZ4zTpxU&s=XuD0z36H2081vbZZjmA1yicP2UQp9o54qemk6vUzUCU&e= ]
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__fieldmuseum.org&d=DwMGaQ&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=Z0L7MtziEK_D2Yw6mQnojTYXxNBD5ZqnMIaDwBJQJdM&s=m29XDteuQNqheNj302hqOFU66R9bBS5yFjYxjw2EAn0&e=>


On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 6:33 PM Neil Stanley Cobb <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Thanks Rachel,

I wish this was available in all the cms systems and/or a centralized table that everyone could access.  So picking up on one of Crystal’s examples of M. Thayer, the collector Margaret Kathryn Thayer has specimens deposited in a number of museums under M. Thayer, M. K. Thayer, Thayer expedition?? (or is that a separate butterfly person?).  So if there was a shared vetted table then that could be available to the community like GeoLocate.

Cheers,
Neil

From: Rachel Hawkins <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 4:08 PM
To: Neil Stanley Cobb <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Cc: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: database and collector's names

Neil - Paul Morris would definitely be the one to talk to on that. As far as I can tell, our specimen records link to the agent table directly. Each agent record has multiple names that we can use to locate the right agent depending on variants. See below for a screenshot example from MCZbase. The "preferred name" is what shows up for specimen records. "Author" names show up with publications.

I wish we had a verbatim agent field, but like Crystal noted, we might have a verbatim label transcription attribute or remark that captures that information elsewhere.
[Screenshot (214).png]

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 6:32 PM Neil Stanley Cobb <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
So I would put it into dynamicProperties and ideally it would be in json format – Katja would know.

I assume the MCZ "master" agent record was created by Paul Morris.  It would be interesting to see where that capability is for all cms systems.  I like putting in verbatim agent in a master table better than the dynamicProperties option, but is the master agent table only available in the MCZ database?

From: Entomological Collections Network Listserve <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Zhuang, Mingna
Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 3:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: database and collector's names


​Hi Christy,



We also do things similar to MCZ in terms of attaching collector names that are obvious. For ones that are not obvious, the system we use (Arctos) has "verbatim collector" as an attribute. SCAN harvests our data from Arctos and puts it into "Dynamic properties" when you view the full record details.



Hope that helps,
Vicky (Mingna) Zhuang Ph. D.
UTEP Biodiversity Collections Manager
B209 Biology Building
Biological Sciences
University of Texas El Paso
500 University Ave
El Paso, TX, 79968
Phone: 915-747-5479
Instagram: @utepbc<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__twitter.com_utepbc&d=DwMFAw&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=feDfmunsU8DIOiALi6Yd14f7yOfi-nThKiMgyNNKbnM&s=z4cGK6FPK7vtJcUDb6f_9B7IQoRCBBYrtAd4KLx0c8E&e=> twitter: @utepbc<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.instagram.com_utepbc_&d=DwMFAw&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=feDfmunsU8DIOiALi6Yd14f7yOfi-nThKiMgyNNKbnM&s=CInhk_B4Ym2GQ66VyW5W5uGl5AI2pCrOZMx-CMiY738&e=> Facebook: UTEP Biodiversity Collections<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_utepbiodiversitycollections_&d=DwMFAw&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=feDfmunsU8DIOiALi6Yd14f7yOfi-nThKiMgyNNKbnM&s=4FeLo94MNeXtA_z7-IEU9xYi3oVF-PpnUEA50iVIyf4&e=>
Website<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.utep.edu_biodiversity_&d=DwMFAw&c=Cu5g146wZdoqVuKpTNsYHeFX_rg6kWhlkLF8Eft-wwo&r=-lUMCZ4RK28H4qvcd3vmEBuyVJHHG0OpDzFenR9wX-A&m=feDfmunsU8DIOiALi6Yd14f7yOfi-nThKiMgyNNKbnM&s=78Gb3dvxhXfVskg7jn5FaL-apZ2tRSKETlQdzc427xc&e=>







________________________________
From: Entomological Collections Network Listserve <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Maier, Crystal <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 4:13 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: database and collector's names

Hi Christy,

We don't have a "verbatim collector" field in MCZBase. We attach the collector name to the specimen that best fits the specimen label, unless there is some ambiguity.

If the label says "J. Smith" I will attach a person [agent] called "J. Smith", unless there's come context that says otherwise.
If it just says "Smith" we attach a person [agent] called "Smith",  unless there's come context that says otherwise.
If it says "M. Thayer" [sorry, Margaret!] we'll attach the person [agent] "Margaret Thayer" since that's a distinct enough name.

One can add taxonomic or institutional knowledge to help guide, but when in doubt, I would go with a more general person [agent]

This is a case for having either a "verbatim label" field for the specimen, or label images attached to the record that serve as a voucher in cases of interpretation.

Hope that makes sense!

Crystal


On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 6:06 PM Christy Bills <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:

Quick question:



When you are databasing specimens, if the label has a collector's initials, or some other shortened version of their name, but you know who it is, do you transcribe into the database who you are 99% sure the collector is or do you faithfully record the label data exactly as is?



We are using Symbiota/SCAN and I don't see a field where it would be appropriate to make a notation that we made that assumption (like "verbatim collector data").



Is this just me?  tbh, I'm finding it difficult to concentrate since this has all gone down!

Happy to get replies just to me so we don't clutter this list.



Thank you!



Christy Bills
Invertebrate Collections Manager
Natural History Museum of Utah
301 Wakara Way
Salt Lake City, Utah 84108

pronouns: she/her



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--
Crystal A. Maier, Ph.D.
Curatorial Associate, Entomology
Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University
26 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA, 02138 U.S.A.

[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
+1-617-496-1055


--
Rachel L. Hawkins

Curatorial Assistant
Entomology Dept. and Pierce Lab
Museum of Comparative Zoology
Harvard University
26 Oxford St.
Cambridge MA 02138


--
Rachel L. Hawkins

Curatorial Assistant
Entomology Dept. and Pierce Lab
Museum of Comparative Zoology
Harvard University
26 Oxford St.
Cambridge MA 02138